The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it. ... In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Tuesday, January 27, 2015

Salt intake not correlated with mortality

.
New study and one more medical myth demolished:

Dietary Sodium Content, Mortality, and Risk for Cardiovascular Events in Older Adults

Wiki


Quote:
Results  The mean (SD) age of participants was 73.6 (2.9) years, 51.2% were female, 61.7% were of white race, and 38.3% were black. After 10 years, 881 participants had died, 572 had developed CVD, and 398 had developed HF. In adjusted Cox proportional hazards regression models, sodium intake was not associated with mortality (hazard ratio [HR] per 1 g, 1.03; 95% CI, 0.98-1.09; P = .27). 

25 comments :

dav0 said...

Always great to see your continued 'a-salt' on the medical dogma :-)

dav0

JC said...

Many studies that show low sodium to be a problem are flawed meta-analysis studies that are paid for by the salt industry.People who eat less salt often do so because they are already sick(often with severe hypertension),so its easy to show a correlation between low sodium intake and health problems. JC

Very few will go on a low sodium diet just for prevention.They do so because of a problem.This is something to keep in mind when evaluating studies that conclude too little sodium is harmful and that low sodium diets are harmful.

Stan (Heretic) said...

Praise be the Lard, dav0, that somebody eventually "a-salted" that dogma!
8-:)

JC,

That study showed no correlation, that is a flat curve on the disease versus salt intake graph. They did not conclude that eating more salt is better, just that there is no difference between lower range (about 1g/d) and the upper range of tested (about 2g/d). I doubt if there was a conspiracy involved in this particular case (imagine me saying so - I must be becoming a mainstream kind of guy... ). Salt is cheap and buying "scientists" is quite expensive.

If I remember correctly, a few years ago, you were also quoting once a study that showed that the more salt correlated slightly with hypertension but not with higher mortality, and that the hypertension did not have a flat characteristics but concentrated around a small fraction of the patients who were especially sensitive to sodium, while the rest saw no effect.

Stan (Heretic)

P.S.

A friend of ours commented on this topic as follows: "It did not really matter what a particular dogma has that study disproved as long as it did disprove something that everybody used to believe in!" 8-:)

JC said...

I'm still convinced that for many salt can be a problem,especially salt sensitive hypertensives.Its also possible that those on salt restricted diets may not get enough iodine since iodized salt is the main vehicle for dietary iodine.

But you "mainstream".... next you are going to start defending mechanism over quantum information fields.

Stan (Heretic) said...

JC,

Iodine deficiency may indeed be linked to salt avoiding habit but, there is also another factor tied to iodine and thyroid deficiency - bad diet! I noticed a certain pattern, reported on many diet forums: -

1) Diets that are very high in carbohydrates, especially refined sugar and starch, tend to correlate with metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance. The mechanism behind insulin resistance creates also thyroid hormone resistance. Thyroid gland tries then, in such cases to overproduce thyroxine to compensate against that (watch the TSH rise!), which then depletes the available iodine. This may create an impression that the lack of iodine is supposed to be the culprit while in fact the primary cause is elsewhere...

2) Bad diets that are too high in certain green leafy vegetables (cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, etc) and beans (especially soy) tend to exert toxic effect upon thyroid. This, again causes the thyroid gland to overproduce the thyroid hormones in order to compensate against that, depleting the available iodine. In addition, some of the phytotoxins block the iodine utilization directly even if it is not depleted. This is similar to the point 1 discussed above. Again one should watch against the rise of the thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) which is indicative of such processes going on. Again, the effects of those kind of phytotoxins create an artificial iodine-defficiency like condition, while the true culprit is of course elsewhere. Iodine supplementation may often masks the symptoms leading eventually to an aggravated condition when the thyroid gland gets damaged and gives up causing the full blown (and dangerous) hypothyroditis disease.

Over the years, I have seen many cases described in the points 1 and 2 above, often both together. Incidentally, hypothyroiditis is one of the 3 most often reported vegan diseases on most vegan forums (the other two are bone and tooth decay and neurological/mood disorders).

The best remedy is to stop consuming all of the thyroid-disrupting plants and refrain from very high carbohydrate diets. If one's thyroid is not yet irreversibly damaged - that usually results in a complete recovery.

Heretic

JC said...

Lets not forget the millions of Asians and other groups that live on diets that are 98% carbs and do just fine.Some of the studies that Dr Greger has uncovered show that thyroid dispupting plants are not nearly the problem they are made out to be and a simple 150mcg iodine supplement completely stops all such problems.

Time will tell if the McDougall style diet is healthy.As Drs Campbell,Essee,Barnard,and other make it to their mid 80s we are going to have some solid evidence one way or another.Same for those on the Atkins/Plaeo diets like Jimmy Moore.Lets wait and compare.

JC

Stan (Heretic) said...

JC,
I have never seen or heard anybody able to live on 98% carb diet. Not even 98% plant based diet. Even primates like gorillas consume a few % of small animals and insect to supplement their plant based diet. If a diet requires taking iodine or other supplements like B12 to live then it cannot possibly be the natural diet. As for Dr. McD you don't really know what does he really eat. The same applies to any of the high profile diet promoter, including Jimmy Moore. If your credibility and your bucks are intimately intertwined then the truth comes second or third in line. Do you believe that if Dr.McD or Mr. Moore had experienced any side effect as the result of their diet, would they have told you all about it? Oh, I was wrong - actually one of them did....

Best regards,
Heretic

JC said...

I don't think there is much doubt that McDougall and crowd eat the diets they preach.Its an experiment....and in another 10 yrs we should know the results.I will also be able to report the results of my own personal experiment.I'm not sure a diet being natural has any meaning.Its whatever combination works that is important.Along with B12,and iodine I think D3 might also be required. JC

Stan (Heretic) said...

JC,

I hope it works for you. Please let us know. Your experience is valuable for other people who may follow similar diet. You are adding to the knowledge.

Stan

cbenediccengi said...

thyroid function is also disrupted by the other halogens that have been introduced over the last century, particularly chlorination and fluoridation of municipal water supplies. Supplants the Iodine. It also buggers up the function of the pineal (the third eye) and lowers IQ.

JC said...

I assume iodine supplementation can counter this.

Stan (Heretic) said...

JC,
I doubt that iodine supplementation can counter an already active hypothyroid disease, unless it was caused by the iodine deficiency. If it was as simple as that then the chronic hypo-thyroidism would not have been as common in the Western world as it is, given that salt is obligatorily supplemented and fish is widely available. People who describe their experience with that condition, often describe a pattern of diminishing return while taking iodine, delaying but not preventing the stage when they have to take the hormone itself.
BTW, is your thyroid OK, do you now your TSH levels?
Best regards,
Stan

JC said...

My"thyroid" numbers are good but I have noticed hair loss and being cold since my change to a plant based diet.On the other hand I have lost 80 lbs and my blood pressure,and blood glucose have dropped a great deal much as Dr Bernard predicted.

How do you avoid all the chemicals,preservatives,antibiotics,and hormones in meat?

JC

JC said...

Another example why I keep an open mind even though at this time I eat a plant based McDougall diet.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/101/2/287.abstract?etoc

JC

JC said...

And another example:

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/101/2/354.abstract?etoc

JC

JC said...

Nuts

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/101/2/407.abstract?etoc

JC

Stan (Heretic) said...

I have no way of completely avoiding it. I did not experience any adverse effect so far. My energy level continues to be high after 16 years on the high animal fat low carb diet. If I did I would have done some tests but so far, I have no reason to investigate contamination or deficiencies issues. As far as I am aware of. So far, my experience has been completely aligned with Dr. Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet info. 16 years is quite a long time for all the diet bugs to show up. None so far.

Stan (Heretic) said...

That glutathione study is interesting. It seems to be linked to whey protein in dairy.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/04/10/can-you-use-food-to-increase-glutathione-instead-of-supplements.aspx

Regards,
Stan

cbenediccengi said...

From what I understand you can supplement with liquid iodine, and the unwanted chems will eventually be chelated and you pass them.

Important to remember that The West has ubiquitous us of Sodium Chloride (table salt, no iodine), it does not generally use a broader spectrum natural salt. ie. Celtic Sea Salt, Himalayan Sea Salt. You could supplement with those salts, liquid iodine, eat more seafood, or buy some sea vegetables like dulse/kelp that purportedly have minerals in the exact proportions needed. Also, people used to drink animal blood, and slurp bone marrow; both very mineral rich.

You can get free range, natural raised meat just by googling your area. You may have to go a ways to get it - and it's definitely pricier. Or, you could take up hunting.

This dudes pretty extreme; but, a neat little story nonetheless. haha.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/01/derek-nance-raw-meat_n_4023019.html

JC said...

Any amount of salt sends my blood pressure through the roof.The only salt I get is the small amount found naturally in vegetables....less than 500mg/day.

Whole foods has some healthy meat but the cost is way to high.

JC said...

Stan,If I remember correctly you are around 58.In another 20-25 years we should know the results of you experiment.I don't think I have your energy level and often take a nap in the afternoon...age 65....but until 2006 I ate a junk food diet...trans fats,chips,tons of sugar,cafeteria food,lots of McDonalds,doughnuts every day....bacon and eggs was my daily breakfast,along with toast and jelly.

Stan (Heretic) said...

cbenediccengi,

Roadkill is another excellent source of organic free range meat (just kidding)

We are not as extreme to eat raw meat all the time. Occasionally we would eat small pieces of undercooked liver, or raw egg yolks (raw eggnog, 6 yolks, no whites, grind a couple of teaspoons of cocoa with a 1/2 teaspoon of sugar, grind or thoroughly mix it in a cup with a mixer until it thickens to a cream/paste like consistency). This is excellent anti-cold and anti-flu concoction, traditional in the Eastern Europe.

Stan (Heretic) said...

JC,
Re: Any amount of salt sends my blood pressure through the roof.The only salt I get is the small amount found naturally in vegetables....less than 500mg/day.

This is not typical for most people. Did you try to do some tests and investigate the root cause of that sensitivity to salt?

JC said...

Yes,I have low renin(salt sensitive)hypertension.

JC said...

Dairy destroys bones:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-02/hsif-nss020113.php