The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it. ... In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Saturday, June 27, 2009

Fuhrman's diet - repeat of the Natural Hygienist's dead end

I thought of rehashing this issue on behalf of my friends and fans (just kidding) from the WebMD forum, especially one person who seems to be doing much better on Dr. Fuhrman's diet and his IMT scan as a measure of arteriosclerotic progression started even reversing as opposed to his previous 30 years on a Pritikin vegan/vegetarian diet. Even though the following text is addressed to EngineerGuy of the webmd forum, I hope that more people will benefit reading it. I am encouraging everyone to read and add comments.

All Dr. Fuhrman did was reintroducing blended salads and added a little bit of meat or fish plus liberal amounts of nuts which are still in severe anathema pronounced by other vegan propagators. One can consider Fuhrman's diet to have 90% in common with the purist vegans like Drs McDougall or Ornish but that 10% difference has made ALL THE DIFFERENCE! What is happening here is that it seems that the 90% compliant vegans seem to be doing better than the 100% compliant vegans!

I think that this little addition of animal produce and nuts has made a huge difference by addressing some of the vitamin deficiencies inherent in the plant-only diets.

That deficiency is not only in B12. I was surprised to find out that some vegans suffer from obvious and easily measurable vitamin deficiencies, even vitamin A in spite of consuming massive amounts of beta carotene! Many seem to suffer from tooth decay, low bone density and/or osteoporosis which would point towards deficiencies of D3,K2 or some other factor. Neurological problems (mood disorders, depression, panic attacks) seem to be associated with the deficiencies of DHA and EPA (fatty acids) in my opinion (this is only my speculative guess, I have no proof).

There is also a possibility that the malnutrition symptoms among some vegans may be caused not only by their deficient diet (note: vitamin D2 and K1 can be obtained from plants, but their proper human forms D3 and K2 cannot!) but also by some intestinal digestive disruption. That possibility was first discovered and proposed as a possible explanation by Natural Hygienists. See Dr. Stanley Bass and read "With Three Generations of Vegetarian Hygienists" by Dr. Gian-Cursio. After suffering many health setbacks on their pure raw food vegan diets, including death of Dr. Cursio's son, they treated them with fasts every few months, followed by some special recovery diet that involved unpasteurized goat's cheese and eggs yolks. Dr. Cursio also introduced (and perhaps invented) the blended salads. (Note: Dr. Bass no longer recommends vegetarian diets, for which he was kicked out of the Natural Hygiene movement, after his life long participation). I am inclined to believe that their recovery approach and explanation may be correct, given the intestinal-disruptive properties of many plants. I think that the absorption problems are related to some plant phyto-toxins from wheat family (I suspect gluten and agluttins like WGA) and the cabbage family of plants (digestive enzyme inhibitors and thyroid hormone disruptors). Fasting would allow the intestinal lining tissue to regenerate itself and recover after excessive raw consumption of those plants.

I am bringing the Natural Hygienist's article to illustrate that Dr. Fuhrman is following in the footsteps of the people who tried that all before him and eventually had to abandon that approach, after many years of trials tribulations and errors. I recommend to learn from their mistakes. Dr. Bass wasted probably ~60 years of his life along this path and is kind enough to inform us of his experience. I am grateful to him since I don't have to go though all this!

Neither should you, after already wasting 30 years of your life on some vegetarianism, you don't need to waste another 30 years on some slightly less harmful variation of the same thing.

P.S. (2/07)

Dr. Bass describes how his fruitarian dietary experiment destroyed his teeth. It turns out that the damage might not be limited to fruitarian diets:

Vegetarian diet 'weakens bones'

24 comments :

Bryan - oz4caster said...

Stan, I think you're right on target with your assessments of these diets.

Joanne at Open Mind Required said...

Hey, Stan. I'm a diehard fan of natural hygiene and a devoted reader of Herbert Shelton. But I've come, after years to study, to reject the natural hygienist dietary viewpoint in favor of the paleolithic diet.

I thank Weston Price and Stanley Bass and all the histrionic vegans for that.

I also recently read that including a little meat in the diet reduces the human agricultural footprint. Go figure.

Drs. Cynthia and David said...

Thanks for posting this and the link. The article on Dr. Bass's site is fascinating. And people think us low carber types are weird! At least we don't suffer from rampant dental caries and osteoporesis! It's also fascinating that they try so hard to emulate the diet of gorillas, without recognizing that our intestinal systems are very different, although they did note that you would have to eat constantly all day long to get enough nutrition (assuming of course that the nutrients could even be absorbed, which they clearly are not given the amount of maladsorption maladies).

What is this WebMD forum you speak of? Sounds intersting, or is frustrating a better word?

Thanks again.

Cynthia

JC said...

Please join the Web MD Great Diet Debate if you are open to challenge and debate.It's not for those whose minds are already set in concrete,but if you enjoy give and take debate... jump in.

Joanne at Open Mind Required said...

How do we get to the forum?

Stan (Heretic) said...

WebMD Great Diet Debate board is here. It has become very quiet recently.

I believe Dr. Bass is now close to 90-ty so not everything he did in his life must have been totally wrong. I like people like him who are not as ego centric control freaks like most of them in this weird society, and are capable of admitting being wrong, if they were wrong. That is very rare.

aspendougy said...

Dr. Shelton was totally bedridden for many years, at the end of his life. His follower say it was "overwork" but I think he developed deficiencies. Dr. Bass is to be commended for being open minded. When chimps kill small game, they share it (They don't generally share fruits and roots) as they know that in order to reproduce, they need it

Stan (Heretic) said...

@aspendougy,

Dr. Shelton was idolized by his followers, even by Dr. Bass, in spite of the fact that his health ideas didn't really work. It took them a very long time to figure it out.

Have you seen an interview with Dr. Gian-Cursio by Stanley Bass?

Generations (introduction)

Books download page with comments

Quote:

With 3 Generations of Vegetarian Hygienists.

Written for publication at Dr. Shelton's request that I interview Dr. Christopher Gian-Cursio - for an explanation of his ideas and methods used in treating his patients for over a 50 year period.

I also interviewed 3 generations of his patients and the results were a revelation of new ideas in Natural Hygiene techniques and clinical nutrition. Dr. Cursio found through working with thousands of patients that the vegan Natural Hygiene diet doesn't work (except for short-term detoxification), and that veganism actually can be dangerous - and he was forced to add dairy and eggs and make other adjustments, that you can find a list of here. He was before his time, and mainstream Natural Hygiene disregarded his findings.
This booklet summarizes findings of Dr. Gian-Cursio that later led to major disagreement over diet in Natural Hygiene, a split in ANHS, and the removal of Dr. Gian-Cursio and others. Resulting in a dominance of vegans in ANHS up until now.


Full PDF file of the interview.

Stan

Unknown said...

If Fuhrmans diet is a repeat of the Natural Hygienists dead end, I wonder why he is having so much success with reversing chronic diseases permanently?
BTW, D3 or cholecalciferol is derived from sunlight and where B12 has everything to do with the intrinsic factor or wrongly combined foods that prevent it from functioning as it should.
Shelton made the mistake within his lacto-vegetarian diet of an EFA (or more specifically a DHA) deficiency, leading to his Parkinsons disease (combined with decades of overwork). This can be avoided with combining flaxseed oil with a sulfurated protein.
I have lived from a plant-based diet for the last 30 years, with no illness, boundless energy and no deficiencies: all of which have been tested for at two yearly intervals as part of my health insurance plan.
Including a little meat in the diet is enslaving the World to famine and hunger. Read on........
http://www.consumercide.com/js/index.php/food-supply/39-necessarily-vegetarian/379-how-to-win-an-argument-with-a-meat-eater

Stan (Heretic) said...

Re: If Fuhrmans diet is a repeat of the Natural Hygienists dead end, I wonder why he is having so much success with reversing chronic diseases permanently?

I think, that is because his diet plan is less bad than McDougall's or Ornish, thus people who come to him from those other vegan diets perceive Fuhrman's as an improvement. I do respect Fuhrman's courage for stating openly the truth, namely than more fat is better than less fat! Not many vegans were capable of admitting it, even those many have suspected that to be the case based on experiences and testimonials.

Re: ...D3 or cholecalciferol is derived from sunlight and where B12 has everything to do with the intrinsic factor or wrongly combined foods ...

For some reason, synthesis of D3 is completely inadequate in vegans on a low fat zero cholesterol diet, even in sunny places like Arizona, Nevada, California etc. There are many testimonials to that matter in drmcdougall.com forum (Health Issues).

B12 is depleted on a high fibre diet because fibre may bind and remove B12 carrying bile out of the digestive system. Combining vegan food would not add B12 since vegan food generally does not contain B12 (with perhaps some very rare exceptions).

Anonymous said...

Stan said.......
"For some reason, synthesis of D3 is completely inadequate in vegans on a low fat zero cholesterol diet, even in sunny places like Arizona, Nevada, California etc. There are many testimonials to that matter in drmcdougall.com forum (Health Issues)".

Indeed fats are essential to health and why they are call "essential fatty acids". I believe that Fuhrman has expanded on and improved the established Natural Hygiene diet to include the above, but we should also bear in mind that dietary sources of cholesterol are minimal: mostly being produced within the Liver, and how statin drugs are designed to artificially inhibit this synthesis to the detriment of good health. Inadequate cholesterol levels means far less or no synthesis of Cholecalciferol (D3).

On the subject of B12, combining a predominantly protein food with a predominantly starchy food at the same meal, produces putrefaction and fermentation, and the primary cause of B12 insufficiency by inhibiting the production of Intrinsic Factor.

Our need for B12 is also miniscule and measured in micrograms or nanograms: one milligram of B12 will last over two years, and healthy individuals usually carry around a five year supply.

I am vegan and have combined my foods correctly for many years with no B12 deficiency.
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/articles/vetrano1.html
Food for thought.

Stan (Heretic) said...

Anonymous wrote:
On the subject of B12, combining a predominantly protein food with a predominantly starchy food at the same meal, produces putrefaction and fermentation, and the primary cause of B12 insufficiency by inhibiting the production of Intrinsic Factor.

If by putrefaction you mean the stuff that sits in the stomach after eating, being digested then indeed, starch would greatly lengthen the process with or without protein. For example, an old Canadian study conducted on a man with a hole in his stomach showed that raw beef gets completely digested after a couple of hours, cooked twice as long, and bread - half a day!

Regarding Natural Hygienists - why exactly they go so stuck on vegetarianism?

Anonymous said...

The Hay Diet (Dr William Howard Hay) is successful in weightloss because it avoids combining protein foods with starchy foods together at the same meal, and one of the only diets that allows you to satiate your appetite.
Hay’s research led him to a diet based on the theory that health was affected by the chemical process of digestion. The body uses an alkaline digestive process for carbohydrates, the group that Hay classified as consisting of starchy foods and sweet things. The digestion of proteins involved acid. If carbohydrates and proteins were consumed at the same time, the alkaline process was interrupted by the acid process. Combining incompatible foods caused acidosis, the accumulation of excess acid in body fluids. Hay linked the combination of foods to medical conditions like Bright’s disease and diabetes. The wrong combinations “drained vitality” and caused people to gain weight.

Not all Natural Hygienists are vegetarian, although the history of NH is rife with the idea of following a lacto-vegetarian diet. Why are we mostly (but not all) vegetarian?
For a variety of reasons and not least those listed here........
http://www.consumercide.com/js/index.php/food-supply/39-necessarily-vegetarian/379-how-to-win-an-argument-with-a-meat-eater

This includes reasons of compassion and humanitarianism, ethics and morality, religion, aesthetics, ecology, conservation of resources (land, water, energy, food), and economics.
It is worth noting perhaps that all food-nutrition originates from the plant kingdom, whether this be directly from the plant-kingdom itself or from those animals that have preyed on plant-eating animals. Rarely do you find carnivores eating other carnivores.
It is a pity however, that Natural Hygiene is perceived by many as a diet, rather than an all-encompassing health recovery/maintenance way of life, and where diet is only a small part of that regimen.

Stan (Heretic) said...

Anonymous, is that your web site you linked ?

I would question validity of most of the points you are there making. For example:

..."Why NOT be vegetarian?"
When you can easily...
significantly improve your health,


Completely unproven! There are indeed studies indicating better health indicators (comparing with the SAD, not with high fat low carb!) as well the opposite - worsening of health risk factors.

..dramatically reduce your environmental footprint,

Don't buy this argument it at all! You call intensive crop tillage of grains, corn etc a "reduced footprint"? I personally consider that the elevated carbon dioxide and methane emissions contributing to a globat climate warming, to be a good thing! It has reversed an onset of the next ice age that has begun with the gradual climate cooling around 3000BC.

...But; if more people really knew how bad meat is (for them, the planet, and the animals), more people would make the choice to go meatless

If you knew how bad a 100% plant based diet really is for YOU you would never have adopted it!

Vegetarians and vegans:
...are far less likely to get cancer, heart disease, diabetes, or osteoporosis


Are you sure? Plant based (nutritionally) India has the highest number of heart disease in the world and higher diabetes rate (13%) than the USA. Osteoporosis is one of the known risk factors for vegans, see here.

...are far less likely to be overweight

Not really relevant, see this.

...have lots more stamina

I doubt it. Can you prove it?

...consume far less pesticides in their food

I doubt it. Any studies? There is a lot of pesticides, herbicides, ecoli in vegetables and fruit, unless they grow their own organically.

...have superior immune function

Totally false! If you look at the "Health Issues" forum in drmcdougall.com you will find that vegans report massive number of infectious and other diseases. The same on vegsource.org, see for example Doug Graham's forum. On the other hand Paleo and other high fat low carbers are almost never sick from bacterial and viral diseases.

...The largest epidemiological study ever conducted (the China-Oxford-Cornell Study) found that those eating the amount of animal foods typical for Americans have seventeen times the death rate from heart disease, and, for women, five times the rate of breast cancer, than those who get 5% or less of their protein from animal foods...

That China Study is supposed to support vegetarianism, appears to be a myth fabricated by Dr. T.C. Campbell from Cornell University. In fact the opposite seems to be true if one looks at the actual China Study raw data published on the Oxford University (UK) website. See my post on this subject here.

Heretic

dav0 said...

Has this blog post even been peer-reviewed? Dr. Campbell's research is peer reviewed.

Anonymous said...

No Stan that is not my own website.
These responses could easily continue for ever, but it is not my intention to persuade anyone against meat-eating if that is your choice, but it just happens to me my own choice thru reasons of health, humanitarianism and the avoidance of needless suffering.
However, much depends on the type of meat you are eating.........
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120312162746.htm
so grass-fed beef would be a much healthier choice. I doubt if there are many who choose this option.
In addition, much meat contains added hormones, antibiotics and other undesirable chemicals which are decidedly unhealthy.........
http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/safer-food-healthier-you

Fish may be a safer option, but then much of it is laden with mercury, and if you go for the factory-farmed variety, then this has a much reduced omega3 and other nutrient values.
People go hungry because much of arable land is used to grow feed grain for animals rather than people. In the US, 157 million tons of cereals, legumes and vegetable protein – all suitable for human consumption – is fed to livestock to produce just 28 million tons of animal protein in the form of meat.........
http://viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

"If I knew how bad a 100% plant based diet really is for ME, I would never have adopted it!

Here's the rub with whether we should be meat-eaters or not: place a toddler in a play-pen with a rabbit and an apple. If the toddler eats the rabbit, I'd give you one million $$$.

India is a poor example. A vegetarian and/or vegan diet isn't necessarily a healthy one if it includes processed/adulterated foods, but it is very healthy option if it is exclusively whole-food based.
The longest-lived and disease-free peoples of the World, usually had a predominantly plant-based diet.......
http://calorielab.com/news/2008/11/27/blue-zones-longevity/



Immune function?

"drmcdougall.com......you will find that vegans report massive number of infectious and other diseases. The same on vegsource.org, see for example Doug Graham's forum".

Most likely because they are Vitamin D deficient which is an immune system modulator, and prevents influenza and other infectious diseases. The flu usually strikes in the winter months and not the summer months (lack of UVB sunlight).
Same for Vitamin C deficiency.

Paleo diet?
You might like to read this........
http://www.jonbarron.org/weight-loss/paleo-diet-review-good-bad

Anonymous said...

Quite frankly, I'll never trust a nutritionist or dietician that says ketogenesis is caused by high animal protein. That's biology 101 - if protein is metabolized during a fast then people would lose most of their muscle two weeks into a fast.

Anyone who steers people away from other products by excluding the fact that ketogenesis is caused by a low-carb, high fat, protein-adequate diet is a charlatan. If they can't even get the Krebs cycle correct, what fool should buy their books?

aspendougy said...

Strictly vegan/veg. Indians living in the U.K develop deficiencies that are not there in India. The reason? There is enough bacteria and dead bug matter in the food in India to remedy the deficiencies! I know it sounds gross, but.....

kelly said...

I believe you are eating a lot of textured soy mock meat, you are doing veget/vegan wrong.

If you are only on a fruits diet (and not eating vege), you are also doing it wrong.

Going 100% raw with vegan foods is also not the right way.

Part of the problem is still the synthetic and fortified vitamins and possibly preservatives in processed vegetarian foods.

How much superfoods are really eaten and how frequently?

There are many things that can go wrong with any diet if you do not know what you're doing.

Stan (Heretic) said...

Hi Kelly,

I partially agree, however, in my humble opinion the main problem with the vegan diets is not that they may go wrong if one does not know what one is doing. The main problem seems to be that such diet _usually_ go wrong, in the long term, regardless of how one is doing it.

Best regards, and welcome to my blog!
Stan

Nicole Anderson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nicole Anderson said...

Millions of people have thrived worldwide eating a vegetarian or mostly vegetarian diet. Epistemologically speaking, however, what we know about nutrition could fit on the head of a pin. We simply do not have enough reliable data to determine what the best diet is, or if there is, indeed, an optimum human diet because we need to factor in genetic background etc. A recent Washington Post article identified six places worldwide where people lived the longest and ONLY place in the US that made it was Loma Linda, California, where many Seventh Day Adventists reside who mostly follow a vegetarian diet.

Nicole Anderson said...

"There is also a possibility that the malnutrition symptoms among some vegans may be caused not only by their deficient diet (note: vitamin D2 and K1 can be obtained from plants, but their proper human forms D3 and K2 cannot!) but also by some intestinal digestive disruption. That possibility was first discovered and proposed as a possible explanation by Natural Hygienists. See Dr. Stanley Bass and read "With Three Generations of Vegetarian Hygienists" by Dr. Gian-Cursio. After suffering many health setbacks on their pure raw food vegan diets, including death of Dr. Cursio's son, they treated them with fasts every few months, followed by some special recovery diet that involved unpasteurized goat's cheese and eggs yolks."

Too small a sample size to have any significance. Did you flunk statistics, Stan?

Stan Bleszynski said...

Hi Nicole,

There are many studies that demonstrated problems with plant based nutrition not just Drs Bass and Gian-Cursio. See my other posts, for example these .

Vitamin D3 and K2 each have been recently found to reduce the risk of cardio-vascular disease by a large factor, while D2 nd K1 do not seem to show the same effects. Not all Seven Day Adventists are strict vegans and they do follow a lifestyle that offers an additional protection against CVD independently from their diet, so it is not really the best of examples. I am not against vegetarianism, it does seem to offer some advantages, for example they seem to avoid the worse pitfalls of obesity and overeating but it does carry certain well documented neurological, endocrine, bone and teeth health risks (see my posts) which can be mediated to some extent by a proper supplementation - providing that it is acknowledged and acted upon rather than debunked or ignored. In this respect your comments here may help to stimulate discussion and action.
Regards,
Stan (Heretic)