tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post2395830106441588161..comments2023-10-23T00:53:05.301-04:00Comments on Heretic: Peasants on high animal fat & potato diet - very healthy! Stan Bleszynskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03922719716458272303noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-20371432870897047672018-07-30T12:49:02.795-04:002018-07-30T12:49:02.795-04:00This is a great discussion. Probably the most inte...This is a great discussion. Probably the most interesting discussion on diet I've seen. I like that the psychological angle was introduced. That is so important and so often ignored in relation to physical health topics.<br /><br />Adverse Childhood Experiences point to the larger context. Taken by themselves, they are telling. But they also indicate other factors that confound any simple analysis. Those with higher levels of ACEs tend to also experience higher levels of other problems: poverty, inequality, economic segregation, racism, lack of healthcare, lack of quality education, parasite load, toxicity, etc. A big factor for poor people with ACE levels is food deserts, which means a unavailability of healthy and nutritious foods. The poor often are already living busy lives, sometimes working multiple jobs and no childcare. The easiest solution is to rely on cheap processed foods that are available in nearby stores.<br /><br />Toxicity also stands out. This should be obvious in a discussion like this. There are all kinds of things done by toxins, such as lead: stores in fat and stress liver, increases diabetes and other physical ailments, contributes to ADHD and learning disabilities, stunts neurocognitive development and lowers IQ, worsens impulsivity and aggression, and on and on.<br /><br />Still, I wouldn't dismiss other confounders such as inequality. Few appreciate how powerful social environment and economic factors impact us. The social and psychological effects of inequality were discussed in great detail by Keith Payne in The Broken Ladder. Like lead, inequality is strongly correlated with higher levels of impulsive and aggressive behaviors, among much else. In general, people become highly stressed out, even the rich (the rich have greater health in low inequality countries than in high inequality countries). <br /><br />Payne concludes that inequality mimics the experience of poverty in creating a highly competitive and divisive environment:<br /><br />“Inequality affects our actions and our feelings in the same systematic, predictable fashion again and again. It makes us shortsighted and prone to risky behavior, willing to sacrifice a secure future for immediate gratification. It makes us more inclined to make self-defeating decisions. It makes us believe weird things, superstitiously clinging to the world as we want it to be rather than as it is. Inequality divides us, cleaving us into camps not only of income but also of ideology and race, eroding our trust in one another. It generates stress and makes us all less healthy and less happy.<br /><br />“Picture a neighborhood full of people like the ones I’ve described above: shortsighted, irresponsible people making bad choices; mistrustful people segregated by race and by ideology; superstitious people who won’t listen to reason; people who turn to self-destructive habits as they cope with the stress and anxieties of their daily lives. These are the classic tropes of poverty and could serve as a stereotypical description of the population of any poor inner-city neighborhood or depressed rural trailer park. But as we will see in the chapters ahead, inequality can produce these tendencies even among the middle class and wealthy individuals.<br /><br />“What is also notable about the air rage study is that it illustrates that inequality is not the same as poverty, although it can feel an awful lot like it. That phenomenon is the subject of this book. Inequality makes people feel poor and act poor, even when they’re not. Inequality so mimics poverty in our minds that the United States of America, the richest and most unequal of countries, has a lot of features that better resemble a developing nation than a superpower.”<br /><br />https://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2017/06/25/inequality-means-no-center-to-moderate-toward/Marmaladehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02701062765483715442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-50541312585972381492014-06-10T15:15:27.922-04:002014-06-10T15:15:27.922-04:00The one thing where I'd take issue with you on...The one thing where I'd take issue with you on the two dietary optima, is which is thriving, which is subsisting?<br /><br />We are a species that evolved near the equator and it is winter which is the time of year where it is hardest to gather food. Animals are available in each season, but plants less so in winter nearer the poles.<br /><br />So while I believe you're on to something profound and unrecognised about there being two dietary optima (and this explains the never-ending wars between the two camps), I'm not sure that your view about eating roots and berries and the like as "subsisting" makes sense.<br /><br />However, possibly alternating between the two is healthy and explains the success of carb-cycling diets.Christoph Dollishttp://facebook.com/ChristophDollisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-61521644904066801442013-07-25T03:08:08.908-04:002013-07-25T03:08:08.908-04:00This is cool!This is cool!Alvinhttp://bestmemoryfoammattressreviews.us/2013/07/19/top-rated-memory-foam-mattresses/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-16512417422311765542013-05-07T00:03:07.449-04:002013-05-07T00:03:07.449-04:00I forgot to add something about the soylent diet. ...I forgot to add something about the soylent diet. He started with balanced carbs, fat and protein soylent. Then he read about low carb so he made low carb soylent. He said it lowered his energy level and didn't work for him. I think this is an extremely important observation that needs to be followed up on. Could it be wheat and other plant based carbs are protected by poisons? Maybe the reason why people feel better on low carb is just avoidance of poisons and is nowhere near an ideal diet. It's just less bad. This is of course called "Sam's Theory of the Lesser Dietary Evil". So far as I know I'm the first to say this.Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-80615407235106203962013-05-04T02:17:19.122-04:002013-05-04T02:17:19.122-04:00I thought you'd like it. I immediately thought...I thought you'd like it. I immediately thought of you when I saw it. In a good way. If you think about it many of the elements could be processed with electricity. I know they have DNA sequencers. Hmmm... proteins? That's the biggest and most expensive part of the diet. Thorium nuclear power plants, proteins, vat grown meat, YIKES. I better stop I'm getting carried away!Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-75986751326839286762013-05-03T21:01:20.465-04:002013-05-03T21:01:20.465-04:00Re: soylent diet - It is off topic but fascinating...Re: soylent diet - It is off topic but fascinating! Since it is all about proton and electron transport, then why not just use electricity? Sci-fi?Stan Bleszynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03922719716458272303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-19663321921853578452013-05-03T04:45:57.552-04:002013-05-03T04:45:57.552-04:00My apologys. This link to the soylent diet is a li...My apologys. This link to the soylent diet is a little off topic. It does fit the criteria of being at the extremes of diet and I believe it might amuse Stan.<br /><br />How I Stopped Eating Food<br /><br />http://robrhinehart.com/?p=298<br /><br />What’s In Soylent<br /><br />http://robrhinehart.com/?p=424<br /><br />Blog<br />http://robrhinehart.com/Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-70935481054873357622013-05-02T19:19:39.209-04:002013-05-02T19:19:39.209-04:00Russian peasants also consume massive amount of fe...Russian peasants also consume massive amount of fermented cabbage, pickles and raw onion and garlic with their salted pork fat and potatoes, and rye bread. I am sure Polish peasant's diet is almost the same - the national dish of Poland is Bigos - stewed together Sauerkraut and fat pork, various meats and sausages. Galina L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09156132815504279615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-18607462342588227602013-04-29T13:47:51.080-04:002013-04-29T13:47:51.080-04:00*falling off the wagon*falling off the wagonChristoph Dollishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08419938664333559498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-78515746699844682772013-04-29T13:46:51.396-04:002013-04-29T13:46:51.396-04:00Apology for mixing up your names. Thanks for the s...Apology for mixing up your names. Thanks for the supportive comment, JC!Christoph Dollishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08419938664333559498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-23769196488600566232013-04-29T13:46:13.367-04:002013-04-29T13:46:13.367-04:00"Stan,I think Christopher is right in that no...<i>"Stan,I think Christopher is right in that non diet related issues like early childhood trauma are much more potent factors that diet."</i><br /><br />Thanks for the supportive comment, Stan, and I want to add something that really ties the two ideas together.<br /><br />One of the huge reasons why adverse childhood experiences and even adult trauma make people obese and sick is not only the extremely negative physiological effects of chronically elevated, inadequately relieved cortisol ... it's also that the emotional disregulation that this causes makes people turn to a variety of unhealthy mechanisms to temporarily sooth, suppress, or distract from their emotions.<br /><br />These include aggression, violence, withdrawal (itself lowering their connection with others and elevating their stress hormones), promiscuity, addiction to smoking, drugs, and alcohol, overeating, and eating without regard to food quality, and also following off the wagon on healthier programs designed to get them away from these behaviours.<br /><br />So it isn't just that emotional trauma (including <i>lack</i> of attachment) breaks down, say, leptin and insulin sensitivity, it's also that it leads to people not being able to consistently follow healthy behaviour patterns because they are too busy self-medicating the effects of their traumatic past.Christoph Dollishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08419938664333559498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-47005266720793014612013-04-28T19:28:48.351-04:002013-04-28T19:28:48.351-04:00I have to add a thought to our discussion, since n...I have to add a thought to our discussion, since nobody yet has mentioned this possibility. It is possible that the reason lard and potato diet was found particulary healthy is not because potatoes may contain something valuable, but perhaps because potatoes might not contain as much phytotoxins as other plant based food like wheat or green vegetables, for example cabbage, cauliflower, broccoli, beans etc. The same could be said about rice in Asia. Rice and potatoes could be "less bad" than other vegetables and more caloric at the same time. Peter The Hyperlipid had some interesting posts about this subject. For example consumption of green vegetable correlating with the increased oxidative stress, see <a href="http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.ca/search/label/Fruit%20and%20vegetables%20%281%29%20re%20post" rel="nofollow">here</a>, and <a href="http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.ca/search/label/Fruit%20and%20vegetables%20%284%29%20The%20asterisk" rel="nofollow">here</a>, and <a href="http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.ca/search/label/Fruit%20and%20vegetables%20%283%29%20last%20post%20%28almost%29" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br /><br />There is also an interesting post on the potato diet & weight loss issue, see <a href="http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.ca/2011/03/potatoes-and-weight-loss-1.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. <br /><br />H.Stan Bleszynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03922719716458272303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-57063324875361149442013-04-26T08:05:05.829-04:002013-04-26T08:05:05.829-04:00Stan,I think Christopher is right in that non diet...Stan,I think Christopher is right in that non diet related issues like early childhood trauma are much more potent factors that diet.<br /><br />JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04691207193166874916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-66054110258145825092013-04-26T08:01:09.888-04:002013-04-26T08:01:09.888-04:00Christopher,We would love to have you join the die...Christopher,We would love to have you join the diet debate group.It is rare to find someone who thinks as far out of the box as you do.<br /><br />http://exchanges.webmd.com/diet-debateJChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04691207193166874916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-37851884451229283612013-04-25T23:03:06.602-04:002013-04-25T23:03:06.602-04:00Christoph,
They have documented some extremely st...Christoph,<br /><br />They have documented some extremely strong correlations! I knew that there is some effect of the trauma but never realized that it is so strong! We can also correlate, for example cardiovascular disease or addictive behavior with bad diet, excess carbohydrates, smoking, metabolic damage due to PUFA and many other physical factor, but that research probably goes one step deeper: why exactly do people choose those physical factors to harm themselves? why do they chose to overeat carbohydrates, smoke or willingly damage their metabolism consuming PUFA etc? Why so many people strongly reject animal fat out of their diets, against their own intuition, harming themselves by forcing their bodies to subsist on lesser nutrients? <br /><br />That research reminds us (me) about the "mind-over-matter" effect. JC - you should watch those presentations too!<br /><br />It would be interesting to look at the possible solutions/remedies, for people with ACE syndrome.<br /><br />I can't also help notice how many people exhibit a "slave/victim" mentality syndrome. It is not the same as ACE but I would not be surprized if they found a similar correlation with that and the civillisational diseases. What are we supposed to do in relation to those people?Stan Bleszynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03922719716458272303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-72657940690679210742013-04-25T15:17:45.944-04:002013-04-25T15:17:45.944-04:00I think it's very difficult to show that one m...I think it's very difficult to show that one must choose between two extremes (not quite extremes) in order to have optimal health. Just by observation many cultures do not lie at one end or the other. Some South American groups, Koreans, parts of east Europe/west Asia for example seem to do well in the middle. <br /><br />What about others who rely on higher amounts of non-animal fat like that from coconut or cacao? I swear I've seen some Southeast Asians that look 20+ years younger than true age. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05161850700121191487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-27310586882962853602013-04-25T04:16:50.833-04:002013-04-25T04:16:50.833-04:00Stan, in light of your being open to 2 optima inst...Stan, in light of your being open to 2 optima instead of one ... and stretching my thinking in that direction ... I wonder if you would consider stretching your thinking in a different way.<br /><br />There is a study that I think is <b><i>the</i> most important study in both medicine and civilisation.</b><br /><br />It was started, by accident, by a <b>top obesity clinician and researcher</b> at a major health organisation. But here's the thing.<br /><br />I believe most people have an <i>internal taboo</i> that causes them to overlook it for <i>psychological</i> reasons. If the logical results of this study percolated throughout medicine and society, the degree of human happiness and wellness would explode as it never has throughout all of our history.<br /><br />That sounds dramatic, but I believe <b>the science is there.</b><br /><br />So I'm going to give a link where I make the case, but even if you want to skip over my take on things and I hope you won't, I invite and challenge you to watch at least a 13-minute video of this long-running study's co-founder (consider it the Framingham Study of psychology with enormous physical-health ramifications) ... and, after watching that, if you're interested enough at your discretion, to then watch the full presentation which is an hour and a half.<br /><br />At some point, <b>I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on this</b> either in the comments or even better yet in a main post.<br /><br />I sincerely believe, should your post be picked up, you could be doing something groundbreaking for the evolutionary-health movement (both optima!) and doing your part to benefit humanity's levels of happiness and decency in some small way.<br /><br />Will you accept my <i>challenge</i> enough to at least watch the 13-minute video?<br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQwJCWPG478" rel="nofollow">Adverse Childhood Experiences by Vince Felitti, MD - 13 minute version</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me07G3Erbw8" rel="nofollow">ACE's by Vincent Felitti, MD</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.dietdoctor.com/is-there-such-a-thing-as-good-sugar#comment-20692" rel="nofollow">My Take</a>Christoph Dollishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08419938664333559498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-40715423297259605732013-04-24T20:13:05.389-04:002013-04-24T20:13:05.389-04:00Re: Does anyone know what the more traditional sta...Re: <i>Does anyone know what the more traditional starch was in East Europe, since potato is a New World crop that couldn't have been known there until around 400 years ago?</i><br /><br />I looked into it recently and found to my surprise that there exists a vast unknown (to me) history of Eastern Europe before the 10-th century. The vast steppes were inhabited by <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians" rel="nofollow">proto-Slavic </a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar" rel="nofollow">Asian</a> tribes, all of them nomadic living off hunting and herding rather than settled farming. That basically rules out any significant contribution from vegetables and fruit until they all settled which probably occurred in the late middle-ages. From then on the most important crops were barley, buckweat (still popular!), oates, rye, beans. Oh btw, if you are interested in the lesser known history of the Eastern Europe, this is a must read: <a href="http://198.62.75.1/www2/koestler/" rel="nofollow">Arthur Koestler "The Thirteenth Tribe"</a>.Stan Bleszynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03922719716458272303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-32534381241843119952013-04-24T09:18:06.495-04:002013-04-24T09:18:06.495-04:00Does anyone know what the more traditional starch ...Does anyone know what the more traditional starch was in East Europe, since potato is a New World crop that couldn't have been known there until around 400 years ago?Third Chimphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10971715342997866161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-6646720225052783582013-04-23T22:34:35.335-04:002013-04-23T22:34:35.335-04:00There have to be two optima! The fact is many peo...There have to be two optima! The fact is many people can live healthy on the low fat high vegetable and fruit diets (althought not on 100% vegan diets - no native culture are completely vegan!), and also many people can live healthy on the high animal fat high meat and high fish diet.<br /><br />It seems to reflect the two adaptations of hunter-gathers, the nomads. When game and fish were available we ate those and thrived, when it was not we could survive through many bad seasons on the "lean cuisine" of roots and berries. It also explains our curious lack of tolerance towards a diet that is equally high in fat and in carbohydrates, unlike for instance some true omnivorous animals such as pigs. You either had meat or you subsisted on roots veg and fruit but not both. Except if you were an upper class individual or a pharaoh and didn't have to gather your food yourself (see that mummies' study). So, our bodies had to adapt either to one or the other, at any given time. <br /><br />I think observational and anegdotal evidence so far (limited) seems to be pointing towards a strong divide between the high animal fat and the very high carb nutritions. <br /><br />Re: Don Matesz blog<br /><br />I am grateful for his blog (though I no longer read it) for reminding me how easy it is to lose sight of the science and become a propagator of "one idea" to a complete exclusion of other. One truth one diet one whatever...<br /><br />This is one reason I have been considering an existence of two dietary optima rather than one, even though I think that there is now slightly more favoring the high fat one. The main thing is to avoid having to "prove" my point of view by filtering non-confirming evidences out, like Don seems to be doing. <br /><br /> Instead of ignoring the non-confirming data and papers, a better approach is to fit all that to a new model that accommodates all empirical evidence. It can be done!<br /><br />Regards,<br />H.<br /><br />Stan Bleszynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03922719716458272303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-48149972499513147352013-04-22T22:01:19.137-04:002013-04-22T22:01:19.137-04:00*two*twoChristoph Dollishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08419938664333559498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-66483909161717414402013-04-22T22:00:19.219-04:002013-04-22T22:00:19.219-04:00Commenter Melissa at Don Matesz's (significant...Commenter Melissa at Don Matesz's (significantly repurposed!) <i>Primal Wisdom</i> makes the same point, and <a href="http://donmatesz.blogspot.ca/2010/03/paleo-basics-how-much-sugar-in-wild.html?showComment=1270094888718#c4818280247410652292" rel="nofollow">she makes it well</a>:<br /><br />"Yeah, I think this claim has been treated a biblical because most Americans don't gather wild foods. In Sweden I gathered tons of wild fruit. Wild strawberries are a great example of a fruit that is clearly undomesticated, but tastes like candy!"<br /><br />Stan, Don Matesz might actually be a pretty interesting example of your hypothesis that there exists to healthy macronutrient-ration sweetspots ... since he clearly used the Paleo high-fat, low-carb-ish approach for a while, and now does much the opposite.Christoph Dollishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08419938664333559498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-2787957898445175702013-04-22T21:52:05.235-04:002013-04-22T21:52:05.235-04:00"Why do you think old potatoes were lower in ...<i>"Why do you think old potatoes were lower in starch and higher in protein? I would guess the same, but I have never much looked into it nor am aware of evidence."</i><br /><br />On a similar note, I keep on hearing Paleo folks say that modern fruits are sweeter than wild fruits.<br /><br />I don't think that's so — neither from my personal experience eating a lot of wild berries over the years and a reading of the science — and <a href="http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/?p=694#comment-154" rel="nofollow">Nora Gedgaudas, at least, acknowledged that she had misstated this</a>, perhaps through misunderstanding it. I don't know if she corrected it in the new edition of <em>Primal Body - Primal Mind</em>.<br /><br />Nora's right, though, that most commonly-eaten cultivated fruit is <em>larger</em> — and that's important. <b>But not sweeter. Many wild fruits are plenty sweet to lure in animals to eat them: that's the whole point!</b>Christoph Dollishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08419938664333559498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-11251448259913227132013-04-22T20:36:25.921-04:002013-04-22T20:36:25.921-04:00Re: "Why do you think old potatoes were lower...Re: <i>"Why do you think old potatoes were lower in starch and higher in protein? I would guess the same, but I have never much looked into it nor am aware of evidence."</i><br /><br />I remember a campaign among Polish farmers and some agricultural experts in the 1970-ties to restore some of the old potatoes breeds that were at that time rapidly declining. That is Polish farmers tried to re-cultivate "Alba" breed (I am quoting from memory, not 100% sure of the exact spelling) which was said to have a significantly higher protein contents, which back then was universally regarded by doctors and nutritionists as desirable, where as the newer high yielding varieties were higher in starch, bigger, faster growing and quite watery. The old "Alba" were yellow and harder, wouldn't fall apart after boiling and they tasted quite differently from the starchy ones. Much much better! <br /><br />Unfortunately, potatoes are planted from roots and that renders them to degeneration after a few decades of continuous planting. They must be re-grown from seeds but that is apparently not easy for farmers to do. Also Polish (communist) authorities that controlled the breed were more interested in the high yield than in taste let alone nutritious contents.Stan Bleszynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03922719716458272303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9040807413744183436.post-90760439689036831652013-04-22T19:48:19.190-04:002013-04-22T19:48:19.190-04:00Stan,
That's an interesting experience. I wo...Stan,<br /><br />That's an interesting experience. I wonder about the mineral intake of many "low carbers" as well. Potatoes etc will provide high amounts of water soluble vitamins and minerals, and I could see many Atkins types to have a probably low overall micronutrient intake. Shellfish and liver are good for that. I don't know how much of a difference it makes, but it's certain that non-industrial rurals eat nothing like the typical low carb/paleo. Blood, bile, marrow, eyes, tendon, skin, etc are used regularly, while to westerners those things are rare.<br /><br />Why do you think old potatoes were lower in starch and higher in protein? I would guess the same, but I have never much looked into it nor am aware of evidence. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05161850700121191487noreply@blogger.com